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Posted 2018/04/12 2:14 AM by Eko Eko

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History of WeBL???


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Sin-N-Terrors Avatar
Sr. Archivist
Mar 2, 2014 at 9:53pm

contributed by Sin

History of Webl??

Posted by: Aazz (2 days until Superbowl XXXVII)
Date: Sunday 5:04 PM

Does anyone know the history of the game...

I remembet the beta test. I found webl by accident
when i tried to log into the "other game" if you know
what i mean. Been with Webl on and off ever since. :-)

What i guess i'm asking is how Bruce got the idea
for TBG and then migrated to present day Webl.

Posted by: ShinRa`s SOLDIER -NE Swarm- (You Can`t Handle The UnTRUTH)
Date: Sunday 6:33 PM

What? "History?" You're Crazy! ;)

Posted by: Sithlord (NAU)
Date: Sunday 7:49 PM

My cousin has a board game called "Title Bout", and he says Bruce
was one of the creators of that game. Anyone know about this?

Posted by: Justin and Cody`s Corned Beef and Stout Beer store
Date: Sunday 9:35 PM

I've seen that game before, wasn't that game created in the early 90's?

I doubt Bruce was a creator of that, since he's not really interested in

Posted by: Sithlord (NAU)
Date: Monday 6:05 AM

Yeah, it is pretty old. Anyway I was talking to my cousin about WeBL,
and mentioned the name Bruce Cota, and he said it rang a bell, and he
thought Bruce had something to do with Title Bout. Maybe he's wrong.

Posted by: Gym`s Tonicpoofs (Soviet Europe) (S.P.Q.R.)
Date: Monday 9:32 AM

Somebody should write the history of WEBL!

Posted by: Team Rebellion`s Powerplant (La Cosa Nostra)
Date: Monday 9:31 PM

Bruce created TBG, then got some guy called Aaron to try to commercialise
it i think. Bruce sent the server to Aaron, Aaron tried to screw
bruce by making all these stupid changes and charging and taking
bribes for extra AP's etc etc..

Bruce said see ya, started Vivi (virtual victories) and TBG has gone
downhill ever since whilst vivi goes from strength to strength.

Posted by: Justin and Cody`s Corned Beef and Stout Beer store
Date: Tuesday 12:00 AM

Ask Apollo, or something :-)

Posted by: The Prodigal
Date: Tuesday 3:15 AM

At some point the facts get hazy, like when Aaron was doing gay pornos and organizing the Canadian
Fascist Party. But I don't want to badmouth the guy.

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Tuesday 5:16 AM

Here's a history:

Some years ago, Bruce created EKO. He intended it as a simple boxing
game, and he did it to show to potential employers what kind of things
he could code. When it began, all fighters were the same HGT, and WGT
didn't matter as there were no weight divisions. His very first players
were people who knew him from EEFL, a play by email soccer simulation
that he created.

Somewhere along the line, Bruce realized that he'd created a game with
potential to be very popular. He made changes, adding HGT, WGT, weight
classes, and styles. Before he added styles, interestingly, all the top
fighters were extremely balanced fighters. If you made some stats higher
and others lower, the diminishing returns would kick in. This was the
impetus for style creation.

At first there were only four styles, but with some very heavy email
exchanges with Duke and me, Bruce ended up creating a bunch more.
These additional styles, with different rules and different names
in some cases, are in WeBL now, and are still (I think) in use on TBG.

He planned to charge for the game, and wanted to make it his job,
rather than working for someone else. The site was at vivi.com, as
it is now, vivi standing for "Virtual Victories" because Bruce's
intent at the time was to create games for a number of different sports.

Anyway, Bruce did some surveying and found that he couldn't make
enough money from people paying for EKO to live on, and at the time
he didn't know how to make money from banner ads. He decided that he
should license EKO to someone better equipped to make money from it,
such as the owner of an ISP who wouldn't have to pay for bandwidth
as Bruce did/does.

Well, that someone turned out to be Aaron. He seemed nice enough to
Bruce when Bruce talked about licensing it to him, although it seemed
clear to me shortly after Aaron took over that he was going to be a
"kiss my butt or else" kind of guy. I turned down a chance to be
Aaron's first Mod on EKO because Aaron did not seem like someone I
wanted to help out. He proved to be even worse than I thought.
I won't go into his fascism in detail; the very worst incident was
Aaron covering up a cheating incident, banning Lawrence and Peekaboo
just for figuring it out.

Bruce didn't like it, but he felt like he couldn't do anything as
long as Aaron lived up to his agreement. After Bruce's computer
crashed, Aaron stopped living up to the agreement. Bruce worked
hard and eventually succeeded in recovering the lost data from his
machine. Aaron then got a manager who went by Charles Xavier to put
up a program with EKO's rules on Aaron's machine, at which point
Aaron stopped paying Bruce the licensing fee. I'm sure Aaron would
justify it by saying that he was no longer using Bruce's code, but
the fact is he was using Bruce's game design.

Bruce went back and forth with Aaron over the licensing fee. Once
Bruce decided Aaron just wasn't going to pay him, Bruce emailed me
and asked if Aaron was still being an asshole. I'm not sure whether
it was because if Aaron wasn't being as asshole Bruce wasn't going
to start his game, or whether Bruce wanted to make sure I still disliked
Aaron so he'd know that he could tell me of his plans for WeBL and
know I would keep his secret. Anyway, Aaron was still being an asshole
and I told Bruce of that.

So, Bruce needed someone to bounce his ideas off of, and I became that
person, and was allowed to tell no one about it until Bruce was ready
for Beta testing. Then Bruce brought the game up for Beta testing, and
eventually for regular playing. Apparently he had some sort of exchange
with Aaron, in which Aaron agreed to drop Bruce's name of "EKO," which
is why EKO became TBG.

Any questions posted here I'll try to answer.

Posted by: Nicko`s KGBpoofs (CCCP) (formerly known as Rookie Boxers)
Date: Tuesday 5:27 AM

is Aaron still being an asshole? %)

PS: thanks for the history, Apollo.

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Tuesday 5:57 AM

Apart from Apollo and Peekaboo is there anybody else who has been around
from the start I.E EKO to WeBL. I have to confess, several weeks ago, I
tried to register with TBG as curiosity got the better of me and I wanted
to have a nosey around whilst the free fighter ran its course. However, I
like many never got the e-mail confirmation which begs the question if TBG

Posted 2018/04/12 2:19 AM by Eko Eko

cannot even register new gyms how the hell can they run a decent game. I
wondered thus is there are numerical comparison available comparing member
ship of WeBL and TBG

Posted by: Tyrone
Date: Tuesday 6:50 AM

I was at EKO back in the day, then later switched to Vivi.com. Though
I am a sporadic player at best, I much prefer this game to that other
one. When I found this place, I was like "I can have 85 fighters
instead of the 1 free one!" And that is where I am today!:)

Thanks Bruce

Posted by: Odin
Date: Tuesday 8:08 AM

I had a gym back at eko, when they gave you 5 fighters free for the
first month, then you would have to pay, but i left once i had used
up the first month.

Then later i found this place.

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Tuesday 8:31 AM

Almost all of the managers who were here in Week 1 had played EKO.

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Tuesday 9:39 AM

Did Bruce ever attempt to implement his virtual victories idea by
creating any other online sports sims. Without prying too personal
it would be great to know a little more about Brucey Cota!

Posted by: Kidney Shots Gym
Date: Tuesday 12:43 PM

I paid for a fighter, but found absolutely nothing worthwhile to the game,
so I just let it run its course and peter out.

Posted by: Stoned Temple Fighters
Date: Tuesday 3:12 PM

Posted 2018/04/12 2:21 AM by Eko Eko

Posted by: Stoned Temple Fighters
Date: Tuesday 3:12 PM

I played TBG for 2 years,about as long as I've been here.
In fact,I still have a sizable account there,
but I'm inactive.My gym is retired.
I was a PC (Mod)for awhile so I have(had)an inside track
on how things are happening there.
I resigned my commission and pretty much quit the game.
Aaron has lightened up a bunch,he lets the commission pretty well
run the community these days which I guess is a good thing.
The PCs have also loosened the reins abunch.
It isn't the nazi regime it was when I first started there.
But there is definately some obvious favoritism towards
the people who support(pay) the most.
A gym who pays $5.00 will not get the same results
as someone who pays $50.00.There are managers there who pay
$100's yearly,even over $1000 who pretty much can do as they please
even blatant violations of the CoC
because they are large supporters of the game.
Meanwhile,managers who only pay $5.00 a month for example,
will get gagged or suspended for alot less reasons.
Which is why I resigned my commission and quit.

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Tuesday 4:58 PM

Interesting update, STF.

As to Bruce implementing the Virtual Victories idea, he seems to have
moments when he thinks about it. He once emailed me with his tentative
design for a baseball game, and he says he has several sports game
ideas in his head.

I doubt he'll ever implement it, though, because since he has found
out that he can't earn a living with his own sports game site as
his job, he doesn't have the time to run more than one game while
still keeping his job.

Now, if he had a financial backer and someone to help him program,
things might be different, or maybe even if he just had the backer.

Before someone asks me how much it would take, I'm not Bruce so I
don't know. :) That would be something to email Bruce about....

Posted by: Great Canadian Pugilistic Emporium
Date: Wednesday 5:21 AM

At one point, Aaron had a good idea of allowing fighter sales, with a small commission going to the
game. But in order to bid successfully, you had to have enough funds in your account. Why anyone
would want to spend good money on a virtual fighter is beyond me, but it did become very popular
with certain managers. And it did help support the game.

So, much money came rolling in. Aaron
thought this was great, and he even announced that the Commissioner's Invitational Tournament (CIT)
in Jan 2001 would have a grand prize of $1,000.

The better managers were selling their best
fighters and accumulating large amounts in their accounts. Then some of them started asking for
their money back. Apparently, that was when Aaron finally realized that money on deposit was not the
same thing as money earned. He also realized that the game could not really afford a $1,000 prize.
So he had to find a way out. He announced that he would personally run CIT '01 by hand, at the rate
of one match a day. With 64 participants, that would have taken over two months to complete. We
experienced managers recognized this as a setup. But one newbie questioned this approach. Aaron
immediately suspended him and canceled CIT '01. Typical Aaron style.

Posted 2018/04/12 2:24 AM by Eko Eko

Who was I, you may ask. Well,
I ran a round robin tournament for four years, called CARRIT (Chuck Anderson's Round Robin
Invitational Tournament). It was a lot of fun while it lasted.

Posted by: G.A`s Commiepoofs (CCCP)
Date: Wednesday 6:07 AM

Heh, I think even BiB played EKO even though nobody knew him
here until recently :)

But wait... pbem soccer simulation in early 90s in USA???? Well,
Bruce is really weird, now I know :)

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Wednesday 6:28 AM

Bruce created EEFL, which I think went defunct a couple of years
ago (long after Bruce gave it up), but many, many of the PBeM soccer
sims on the net are based on it.

Posted by: Duck (Chairman of the Board of WEBL)
Date: Wednesday 9:16 AM

Great Canadian Pugilistic Emporium

Welcome Chuck....It is good to see you...
Also, I must tell the people that your CARRIT was one of the best Tournaments
in EKO.. And I also remember how much you contributed to your Commentary. I
Can't remember what it was called, But, I use to look foward to it every

I am wondering really how many old EKO'ers we have here with other names..

Posted by: Great Canadian Pugilistic Emporium
Date: Wednesday 3:08 PM


I did Canadian Cruiserweight Times for about 9 months. When Peekaboo and Lawrence were expelled, I
decided that there was nothing newsworthy left, and ended the commentary

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Wednesday 3:11 PM

WeBL is the only online game I play, or have ever played

Thus as an online game retard could anybody tell me what

alpha and beta testing is?

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Wednesday 3:13 PM

Any chance somebody could add dates to this I.E

When did EKO begin When did Bruce split from EKO When did he create WeBL etc

Posted by: Lord Bremen
Date: Wednesday 11:18 PM

Was that Prod making a joke?!?

Posted by: his father
Date: Friday 12:17 AM

I use to read that each week (Hoping to one day make the news ;) Never did tho)
I think I was once in your CARRIT one year. My name in EKO was Orenthal.
Good to see your here!

Posted by: The Prodigal
Date: Friday 12:30 AM

I was quite proud of my winning record in the first CARRIT.

I also remember my friend Jerri Maguire getting destroyed by Peekaboo in the finals.

Posted 2018/04/12 2:25 AM by Eko Eko

Posted by: Stoned Temple Fighters
Date: Friday 12:31 AM

Orenthal....ah ha...I wondered where you got to.
I was Fastshawn over there.

Posted by: The Damion
Date: Friday 1:43 AM

WeBL has been around since November/December '99 I think. I do remember joining
about 2 weeks before Bruce made it 1 fight a week instead of 2

Posted by: Great Canadian Pugilistic Emporium
Date: Friday 6:36 AM

CARRIT participants can be found here:


Prod, which one were you?

Orenthal, sorry I missed you in the commentaries. Obviously my fault.
I do remember that you participated in the Millenium Man Tourney, but that was run by someone else,
I was only assisting.

Posted by: The Prodigal
Date: Friday 1:06 PM

Chuck, I was The Lion's Den.

Posted by: Duck (Chairman of the Board of WEBL)
Date: Friday 10:46 PM


Posted by: DoGG HouSe
Date: Friday 11:25 PM

this is one interesting thread I just read it post by post all the
way through, its the classic story.

There is a guy who gets screwed by an asshole who then turns things
back round again and shoves the whole screw job up the assholes ass.

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Saturday 3:05 AM

Just a little tidbit:

Aaron remains a thief. I guess he sold off some of the fighters in
my TBG gym and kept the proceeds. I'll give him credit that he didn't
sell them all; Prod was in an AIM chat with me and entered his old
TBG gym, and checked on my fighters.

I really only asked about two: Tyrone "Spider" Webb, my EKO Hall
of Famer, was still in my gym (I guess Aaron has some restraint). But
he wouldn't have earned that much money in a sale because TBG has
chronological aging and Spider has too many fights.

But then there's "Iron" Ike Wellstone, who was headed for potential
greatness until Bruce's machine crashed. I didn't play after CX put
the post-crash copy of the game up, because it was very inferior in
my eyes (I know Mace agrees with me).

Anyway, he had a world of potential, and Aaron sold him. As far as
I'm concerned he was mine to keep or sell, and although I'd have been
wise to sell him (or not, as I could never get the money) given that
I don't even really play here much and if I started playing Net boxing
actively again it would be here and not TBG, Aaron had no right.

I'm glad that a manager there I always liked is the one who bought
him though. He does by Bold Bill there, and is a good manager and a
nice guy. The only thing that bugs me is that Aaron got the money.

Posted by: Duck (Chairman of the Board of WEBL)
Date: Saturday 10:52 AM

I will have to defend Aaron a bit on the above. He runs TBG as a business.
He took the game over to make money.. That doesn't bother me at all..

Posted 2018/04/12 2:25 AM by Eko Eko

When he took all the inactive gyms and started to sell the fighters he made
a ton of money.. People were bidding on them like the cabbage patch kids..
He then realized that this was real money.. I know of a players called
DAD & SON that must have spent 1,000 dollars buying fighters. Frank White
also spent some bigh bucks. Both got the fighters and fight plans which made
them top managers in the game using other fight plans that were created by
great managers. Apollo's fighters I believe also had some fight plans in
them. POP was a top manager who quit and all his fighters were sold. You were
really not bidding on the fighters that much (they were a bonus) what they
were bidding on was the fight plans.
So in truth, if you had some bucks to spend you could have the success
of Apollo, Peekaboo, Lawrence the Puck Man , Jerri Maguirre,
Joe, Pop, Tarmac, etc. overnight..

And If you were not a active manager, Aaron kept all the money for himself and
did not have to give the inactive manager a penny..

Aaron made some big bucks on this idea..

Posted by: Great Canadian Pugilistic Emporium
Date: Saturday 1:21 PM

I haven't been there in about a year, so perhaps I am not up to date.

I do know Aaron sold some fighters, but these were from gyms that had been banned from the game (and
I won't get into that). But that didn't last long. He left most inactive gyms alone.

The problem really arose when some active managers wanted to cash out. As this was money on deposit,
there should not have been any problems. But apparently there were problems.

Posted by: Hookers(Kånkelbär) Pro Guys Only
Date: Saturday 1:37 PM

i offered Bruce 35k for the game once but he declined.
now if bruce needs a backer for other vivi sports
i could muster a coalition of football fans if he did a
NFL thingy

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Saturday 2:18 PM

How big is the Boxing Game (manager numbers wise etc) I have only played WeBL
and cannot see why anybody in the AD EKO era would want to?

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Saturday 4:54 PM

The way I see it, the fighters in my gym, their fight plans, and
their accomplishments, are mine. For Aaron to sell them to make
money for himself is theft.

Aaron wants to make money off TBG. Fine. But he doesn't have a
right to steal something that belongs to me in order to do it.

I'm so inactive in TBG that if Bold Bill had written me and offered
me $10 for Wellstone including his most recent fight plan, I'd have
agreed to the offer (which I wouldn't do on WeBL because I'm still
around here even if I rarely fight and want to have my best fighters
in my gym here). I'm sure Bold Bill paid more than that for Wellstone.

But that's rightfully my money, not Aaron's.

To answer other things, if you want to financially back Bruce for
making a game for another sport, I suggest you email him. I don't
know for sure, but I think if you offered him the right amount of
money (the $35k sounds like more than enough to me, but I'm not
Bruce so I can't say) for him to make a game for another sport, and
in exchange you got 80% of the revenue from the ads on that part of
the site...the Bruce that I've had email exchanges with would probably
find that too tempting to pass up.

As far as the population of TBG, I have no way to know. I think it's
much smaller than WeBL, but it does have better promotion, there are
players there who don't know about WeBL, and other players who don't
want to learn a different sim even though they know of WeBL.

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Saturday 5:00 PM

Posted 2018/04/12 2:27 AM by Eko Eko

Posted by: The Prodigal
Date: Saturday 1:59 PM

Lest Duck give you the impression that Aaron's not a thief, well that's just plain not true. I
could never get more than $100 out of my account, and got the runaround whenever I asked questions
to get it out. I heard they later changed the rule that money couldn't be redeemed, it could only
be used as EKO credit. Nice rule. Too bad I got screwed before the "official" change.

never got about $100 or so from the sale of his fighters, although he did get some of it. He always
told me he never expected to get all of it, anyways. He thinks he got the portion he did was
because it was basically "hush" money.

Peekaboo was easily the dominant manager when he left, and
very visible. Aaron not quieting Peekaboo would have been bad for business

Posted by: Moe (WTA Inc)
Date: Saturday 8:03 PM

Thats what I hated about that rats nest at TBG. That the
FPs went with the fighters when they were ripped from your
gym. I only opened an amateur gym because I wasn't going to
give that swine any money,but it amazes me how they can even
rip that stuff off. 'Your fighter wants to go pro,he will be
ripped from your gym and given to the highest bidder unless
you pay' I dont care what anyone says. Those monkeys at TBG
couldnt hang with WeBL managers when they dont get FPs with every
fighter they buy or ripoff.

Posted by: DoGG HouSe
Date: Saturday 8:16 PM

I just registered an account to have a snoop round and see whats what
and its not too hot at all, I posted in the forums about getting any money
I might win and I was told that its not possible to take money out of
the account (winnings cannot be taken out of the game). Also there
is an error message on the bottom half of every page that loads up.

The log in proccess is awful

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Saturday 8:43 PM

I couldn't even get in

Posted by: DoGG HouSe
Date: Saturday 8:58 PM

do you want mine?

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Saturday 9:10 PM

why not? :)

I only want to nosey

Posted 2018/04/12 2:28 AM by Eko Eko

Posted by: DoGG HouSe
Date: Saturday 9:22 PM

tell me when you get that so I can delete it because otherwise
every tom dick and kewari will be logging in and they will
probably block it.

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Saturday 9:43 PM

Been in, cheers

Its very bland compared to WeBL. I didn't like it to be honest

The fighter set up system from a glance seems very basic

Posted by: DoGG HouSe
Date: Saturday 9:48 PM

did you see my amature fighters they are by far the best amature fighters
ever to be made in that game.

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Saturday 9:48 PM

I cannot understand why anybody would pay for TBG when you can have WeBL free

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Saturday 9:54 PM

I did. How come you got 2? I thought they only gave you 1?

Am I right in thinking you only allocate Str, Agi, Spd and toughness?

Maybe build?

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Sunday 12:38 AM

Str, Spd, Agl, Tgh, Hgt, and build. Bruce, in creating WeBL, added
KP and divided Tgh into CHN and CND. He also added cut resistance;
if only he'd make cut resistance matter it would really be cool.

Posted by: DoGG HouSe
Date: Sunday 1:00 AM

yeah we want cuts to be improved in some way or another!

I dont know how I managed to make 2 I didnt realise I shouldnt
be able to I just clicked and made one then clicked and made
another I think that they are both amature fighters but I am
not so sure.

I probaly wont keep interestes long enought to find out either,
I will let you know as the "dogg invades eko" story unfolds!

Posted by: Doc Ottawa
Date: Sunday 1:14 AM

Actuall Aaron even avoid his commissioners for a 3 month period when
Lions Den tried to collect his $127 ......and that was nothing compaired
to the fancy footwork preformed when Joe asked for his $800.00 ....LOL and
imagine people actually thought this weasle would pay a $1000.00 purse for
the CIT

Posted by: DoGG HouSe
Date: Sunday 1:16 AM

when did he decide that you would not be able to get your winnings
and they were all just for in game use?

Posted by: TOAs Gym
Date: Sunday 1:34 AM

LOL dogg , we'll how about a webl v tbg tournament lol webl is much better and would beat em easly.

Posted by: The Notorious Dr Funk- D.S.H.
Date: Sunday 1:35 AM

i won a RT in TBG with a 10 line fp that never changed, you should be
able to do even better dogg

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Sunday 2:38 AM

Dog I loved your undercover posts

You were so newish in manner, perfect disguise! :)

Posted by: Great Canadian Pugilistic Emporium
Date: Sunday 5:52 PM

If you believe you have been a victim of Internet fraud, then you should complain to your state
attorney's office. Get a printed copy of your account (MANAGE, ACCOUNT in TBG). Send an Email to TBG
stating that you are leaving TBG and ask for your balance back. Give them 5 working days to respond.
If the response is negative, or you get no response, proceed with the state attorney's office.
Estimate the full amount of your claim, including sold fighters against your will. Point out clearly
that all amounts are either on deposit (what you paid in) or earned (fighter sales or fights won).
Then claim that this appears to be Internet fraud (a hot button).

Your state attorney can't do much
directly, but the complaint will be sent to the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP). If enough
complaints come in, our boys in red will have to so something. Include the URL, and, if you can find
it, the postal address. The RCMP will likely send a forensic accountant to have a look-see.

keep this in mind: if TBG goes down, then WEBL will likely become a pay-for-play site

Posted by: Randar`s place to be
Date: Sunday 7:12 PM

"if TBG goes down, then WEBL will likely become a pay-for-play site"
i don't agree on that if Bruce wanted to earn money this site would be p2p a long time ago :)

Well just made my first visit to TBG :)

Boy it looks professional.......not.

Firstly reading above about not paying out money i find this very misleading.

From : what is TBG all about.

Posted 2018/04/12 2:29 AM by Eko Eko

WeBL will not become a pay for play game if TBG goes down.

I strongly doubt WeBL ever will become pay for play, but if it
did it would have nothing to do with TBG's going down.

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Sunday 8:17 PM

When I briefly went in last night to have a look round TBG it seems
like Aaron is no Bruce. He was talking in one thread that setting up
a mirc chat room would take some time as it was difficult and in
other threads the system had crashed. There are also system errors
on several pages.

Posted by: Great Canadian Pugilistic Emporium
Date: Sunday 8:21 PM

Randal, Apollo: I sure hope you guys are right. A mix of free... up to a point, and P4P for the big
guys, would be the right formula. But never forget, Bruce always intended to institute P4P from the
very start. The only thing that stopped him was TBG.

I don't mind that. I would gladly pay for WEBL
But the competition would not be the same. The real problem with P4P in TBG is that it has become a
very elite game. Some like it that way, but I don't. I prefer a chance to develop my skills in a
free game. TBG will steal your fighters if you are too successful.

But my point remains the same...
if you think TBG ripped you off, complain, dammit. If you don't wan't to complain in the appropriate
forum, then don't spout off. It really is that simple, guys.

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Monday 2:18 AM

GCPE: No. EKO he intended to make pay-for-play from the start
(well, not from the very start, when it was just something to
show potential employers, but soon after).

He never intended to make WeBL pay-for-play, and if he had, TBG
would not have stopped him. The difference is that he learned to
make money from banner ads.

Posted by: Peekaboo (BobbleHead Moonwalker)
Date: Monday 2:52 AM

For the record eko does owe me money that I asked for and
never received. It was hilarious when Joe asked for all
*his* money. Shortly after that Aaron changed the rules
about cashouts. As Great Canadian said, Aaron never figured
out that he only got just under 20% (10% on the sale and
10% on the cashout) and not all the money pouring in.

As for complaining, its all water under the bridge to me.
Aaron did some good things and very bad things while I was
there, and in the end, I kind of pity the man.

I'm just grateful I don't have to play there any more to get
my "fix" of internet boxing.

Posted by: Frank White of the Mafia
Date: Wednesday 12:42 AM

This is a great thread!! Thanx for the great "insider info" Apollo.

I don't mean to interupt here but i have to address something to Duck.

Duck was one of the PC's (MOD's) There when i joing EKO
back in the day. Duck was also one of the poorest managers I've seen that played the game for an
extended amount of time.

For years now i have heard that Duck had been badmouthing me here,
So i am here to address that:

When i started EKO i got the free 5 fighter gym, when that free month
expired i bought a 40 fighter gym. A few years later fighter sales
emerged and everybody went wild Buying fighters because those fighters
came w/ fight plans. (Duck being a manager that played for years still yet
to win a title should have joined).

Posted 2018/04/12 2:30 AM by Eko Eko

- Duck says That made Dad& son and myself Top managers
(Dad to this day has a losing Gym record, so thats not true)

- When fighter sales emerged, I was one of the guys trying to make
money by selling fighters. I bought some, none worth anything.

- The majority of managers to this date has bought fighters and
either used or learned from their fight plans, only 1 or 2% of them
going on to win any WT's, so what seperates me from them.
(To this date, there are only 3-4 managers that has won more WT's
than me.)

Posted by: Frank White of the Mafia
Date: Wednesday 12:42 AM

- I give Kudos to Bruce for staying ahead of the curve & for continueing
to prosper w/ a great game. Just wanted to address Duck here, who was always a subpar manager & in
all his years has never won a WT in EKO/TBG.

(Has he won any WT's here?)

- Duck was always wrong in his scouting & fight planning the same way he is wrong about this.

I had writted an extended response to Duck then accidently deleted it, This
is the short, revised version :)

Sorry to interupt guys.

Posted by: Frank White of the Mafia
Date: Wednesday 1:43 AM

- I give Kudos to Bruce for staying ahead of the curve & for continueing
to prosper w/ a great game. Just wanted to address Duck here, who was always a subpar manager & in
all his years has never won a WT in EKO/TBG.

(Has he won any WT's here?)

- Duck was always wrong in his scouting & fight planning the same way he is wrong about this.

I had writted an extended response to Duck then accidently deleted it, This
is the short, revised version :)

Sorry to interupt guys.

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Wednesday 4:00 AM

Try winning a WT here Frank :)

No offence, but winning in TBG and WeBL is like comparing winning a
pub charity boxing contest with the unified world heavyweight title

As for Duck, he openly admits he sucks big time, he never hides it.
I think he totally retired his gym as he had more important things
ro do in assisting Bruce.

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Wednesday 4:30 AM

I was going to say it, but CPW already did.

But I'll repeat it. Duck very openly admits he's no good at managing
in WeBL. I don't know what else you could want from him on that count.

Posted by: Dave Black
Date: Wednesday 5:55 AM

Apollo said..

"Somewhere along the line, Bruce realized that he'd created a game with
potential to be very popular..."

That was me!! my claim to fame!!

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Wednesday 4:58 PM

Ah, nice job Dave in having pointed that out to Bruce! None of
this would be here if not for that, probably.

Dave Black, by the way, is the only manager I know of who has
been involved in Bruce's boxing games longer than I have and is
still around. I'm sure there are others, but he's the only one
I know of.

I joined EKO early, but not that early. By the time I joined,
there were already weight divisions, for example. Dave might even
remember when EKO had no weight divisions....

Duke, who has played here, also pre-dated me, but I don't think
Duke logs on here anymore. Mace and I started playing EKO at
approximately the same time.

Posted by: Team Rebellion`s Powerplant (La Cosa Nostra)
Date: Wednesday 5:50 PM

want some more history?

Posted 2018/04/12 2:31 AM by Eko Eko

-There is only one mafia in webl Frank White.

Posted by: Mochrie
Date: Wednesday 7:00 PM

very interesting apollo...

Posted by: Frank White of the Mafia
Date: Wednesday 9:12 PM

Central Park Wigan,

Have u played TBG and won a WT there? (Just curious)

If so, What was your gym name?

If Peek or Prod said webl is much tougher to win a WT
than TBG I'd have to believe it sonce those are the only
2 guys that i know of that has won WT's in both games.

Posted by: Apollo
Date: Wednesday 9:56 PM

There are far more than just them: WhiskyCrow and I both have
done it, although in both cases our WeBL titles were in the early
weeks of WeBL. As a conservative estimate, there have to be at
least 10 people who have won wt's both places. It's probably
more like 30.

Posted by: Duck (Chairman of the Board of WEBL)
Date: Wednesday 10:20 PM

Frank White of the Mafia:

I will respond to what you wrote...

Not one person ever heard me say, I was good at scouting and managing...

I did fight 3 times for World Titles over on EKO..
(With My fighters and fight plans)
If I correct, I lost to Peekaboo, Joe, and Lawrence the Puckman...

I have never fought for a World Title on WEBL and doubt that I ever will...

If you remember Frank, I dedicated a lot of my time on EKO to trying to
keep the peace between Aaron and some of the players.. You can look at my
gym over their.. I had put in 3 years of volunteering to put out fires..

Now, remember that I have so much information on my computer, I could break
open a all out war at EKO. I as a person whom gives his word and keeps it
will not publish any confidential information regarding any player..Even you...

As far as I am concerned about you... I could care less,... I didn't like
you at EKO and I will tell you that I still don't like you.. You were a idiot
back then and still are... I don't know if you got a WT over at EKO Now
Because you didn't why I was their. but if
you did I am sure it was with someone other then yourself fight plans..

Now, when I do put my mind and have the time, I am not all that bad.. Not
good, but I do have my moments.. I created a fighter in my gym who is
23-0-1.. Yes, undefeated after 24 fights.. My fight plans, Not bought,
created by me....

Now one last thing...With all that money you spent over at EKO did they
ever at least make you a P/C yet?

Now run back to EKO with your bought fighters and Fight plans.. We do not
sell fighters at WEBL.. So you fighting for a WT over here is pretty slim.

Posted by: Duck (Chairman of the Board of WEBL)
Date: Wednesday 10:23 PM

Fighters Managed by Frank White of the Mafia

USA Pacific: $16,967,782 total earnings. Record: 1092-950-73. 6 titles.
Contenders: $5,290,142 total earnings. Record: 10-10-5.
Unsanctioned: $21,940 total earnings. Record: 24-19-2.

Fighters Managed by Duck (Chairman of the Board of WEBL)

Contenders: $252,975,436 total earnings. Record: 251-339-28.
USA Mid-Atlantic: $161,161,842 total earnings. Record: 1033-666-73. 52 titles.
Unsanctioned: $8,254,358 total earnings. Record: 114-67-9. 9 titles.
Classic EKO: $2,479,560 total earnings. Record: 55-28-4. 15 titles.
Experimental: $2,061,190 total earnings. Record: 53-14-4. 35 titles.
USA Northeast: $399,418 total earnings. Record: 89-96-5.
Independents: $94,654 total earnings. Record: 145-160-6.
Bare Knuckles: $21,120 total earnings. Record: 17-10-9.
Invitational: $0 total earnings. Record: 0-4-0.
Professional: $0 total earnings. Record: 2-8-0.

As bad as I am, I still would take my record over yours...

Posted by: Central Park Wigan
Date: Thursday 2:15 AM

Frank White

Why on earth would anybody pay to play TBG when WeBL is here?

TBG is riddled with errors, the site is a shambles

And Duck is actually better than I thought! :) Not bad for a bloke in
his twilight years ;) doing a virtual full time job! & normal life

Posted by: Dave Black
Date: Thursday 4:11 AM


I doubt if there's anyone earlier when i joined EKO there was 17 managers..

Posted 2018/04/12 2:32 AM by Eko Eko

Posted by: Frank White of the Mafia
Date: Thursday 9:54 PM

BTW Duck - Were you aware that you have a losing record in

That's pretty damned sad!! Even on cruise control, I have a
winning record in CONTENDERS.


Posted by: Apollo
Date: Friday 12:07 AM

Frank, if you want to fight Duck under WeBL rules, all that has
to happen (if you two agree to fight) is for one of you to create
a private region, the other to join it, and you both agree on
the weight class you'll fight in and create fighters there.

You could make it best of three in one weight class, or best of
three fights with different fighters in different weight classes.

My money is on Duck if you two do that.

Posted by: Kopite (ALLEZ ALLEZ)
Date: Friday 5:30 AM

Please, please , please get this on
I wanna see duck kick his arrogant ass

Posted by: Malibu [SWAT]
Date: Friday 6:42 AM


What do you know about kicking ass?

Posted by: Steve-O (NAU)
Date: Friday 7:28 AM

Frank, your contender record is a joke. It doesn't matter whether
or not you've got a winning record when, in 11 wins, you've only
made $7 million.

Posted by: Duck (Chairman of the Board of WEBL)
Date: Friday 7:35 AM

Frank White..

Let me show your record.. You have had over 2000 fights in your region and you
have had 25 fights in Contenders.. Now what does that tell you? YOU can't
even get your fighters out of the regions into Contenders..
Your bought fight plans do not work on this engine.. As far as auto pilot...
I reallly have not looked at your gym, but knowing you and what a idiot you
are, Your fight plans have been changed from week to week. Since I am sure
that they are old EKO fight plans some of the conditionals do work.. Some
Frank, because WEBL does not acknowledge some of them....

AND 10-10-5 is not a winning record ...

I dont pay to do aarons work! Even if asked i would have to decline.

How much have you spent on the gyms you have and for the fighters..
Dummy.. if that is not considered paying, then you better check your brain
cells because it looks like they are dormat.

As far as records are you aware that I have :
111 Total


I am 52 years old and retired to spend more time with my Grandchildren.

You should have a track record in real live as I do..I have seen people like
you all my life and have dealt with them.. I just shake my head and say:
"What a waste of Human flesh" and Frank, that is what you are to me..

I don't need to have WT's to prove anything to anyone..If I get one that
would be great, But if I play for 20 years,and still don't get one, it
wouldn't bother me in the least.. But, If I do get one it will be one that
I earned and not one from Peekaboo, Joe, or Joe Byrd's fight plan.

Now, you are not worth any more of my time, Since I am now thinking of you
I have to go to the bathroom and let my thoughts of you out of my system..

Posted by: Duck (Chairman of the Board of WEBL)
Date: Friday 7:57 AM

I have wasted enough time on you.. The above will be my last post on this subject.

Posted by: Great Canadian Pugilistic Emporium
Date: Friday 8:00 AM

Hmmm... let's see.
Duck needs 34 matches to win a regional title.
Frank White needs 354 matches to win a regional title.
No contest there.

You know what they say, Frank, it's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool (and, yes,
we all think you are a fool), than to open your mouth and prove the case conclusively (now we are
all convinced).

Oh, and by the way, what the hell have you ever done for WEBL? Or for TBG? Except
spend ridiculous amounts of money buying other people's intellectual property? Sorry, Frank, but
that does not buy you respect

Posted by: Frank White of the Mafia
Date: Friday 10:30 PM

Chuck anderson,

Did you see the part where o said that
all my fighters here have been on cruise for years now.

Do the logs here show how often I've logged in before this week?
Now, chuck i know which fight plans you've used i can send the info to

Posted 2018/04/12 2:33 AM by Eko Eko

There is much much more want it email shanes81@yahoo.com

Posted 2018/04/12 2:17 PM by J.Aaron Hall

WEBL is nothing more than all the managers who have gotten the boot for one reason or another from BDB/TBG/EKO. All this hate in the post is nothing new to any of us since most of us were around and lived through most of these retards getting booted and all the tears they shed. Most of them were good riddance. I'm not sure what you expect to accomplish by posting 20 year old drama that is so old it smells like my grandma's mothball socks.

Aaron owns BDB and has rather generously kept it open for the sake of a few of us old timers that still actually play script games. If he was just the greedy asshole you are trying to insinuate the game would have closed long long ago when it got down to 15ish active managers and a few who log in every once and a bit.

If you really enjoy the Aaron Hater's Club ghost town that is WEBL please go there, play that game and fuck off from this one. We don't care. Most of us are old as shit and play this for nostalgia, not for who fucked my girlfriend drama from almost 20 years ago. You won't get any support from anyone other than Big Boy Inc or any of his restart gyms or Rob Seltz and his, both of whom have done serious damage to the game. I wouldn't be surprised if one of them was behind this post as they really enjoy spreading their cheeks and showing their assholes.

As for the rest of us, we will keep playing the game without cheating and without drama, making fighters, winning and loosing titles and having fun doing it.


Posted 2018/04/12 8:19 PM by Admin

I am in awe. How sad does this poor guy's life have to be to take the time to do this.

Find him. Hug him. Show him love. He's clearly hurting.

Posted 2018/04/25 7:24 PM by Duke of Dorkdom

Wow. Reading through that, all i hearing was "Wah! I am sooo butt hurt from shit that happened, literally, decades ago! wah, wah, wah." Sad. Pathetic.

Was cool seeing FW post though.

Basically JAH sums it up perfectly.

Posted 2018/08/03 4:55 PM by Bold Bill

CARRIT was awesome. Honored first time I got invited.

Posted 2018/08/07 5:21 PM by The Monster from Within

A rather childish post, why bring up old news? I prefer BDB over WEBL and you seem to prefer WEBL over BDB. So why go on here and rant? I'm sure both games have their pros and cons.

Posted 2018/12/06 3:49 AM by Slick Willy

I bought my first home computer in April 2001 and back then wa was a massive boxing fan who had played Title Bout for years.
Almost the first thing I did was look for an electronic version of Title bout and didn't find one but did find TBG. I joined and so did my 2 brothers Lamont Jenkins and Flexfreak within a few days.
The game was flourishing at that point with about 20 active Canadian managers in our region and probably 150 overall in the game with some really quality managers.
I absolutely loved it and dove headfirst into trying to absorb as much as I could as quick as I could. I've always played every game I play to win and I did a lo too winning. I spent hours breaking down my opponents strategies to predict eerie fight plans and works out what I thought their stats were and sparred for hours to figure out how to beat them.
My first couple of fighters were limited as I really didn't know what I was doing but I got my 2nd fighter to a rating 14 or something like that. My 2nd generation of fighters cracked the 20 ratings and brought me my first world titles. I won a bunch of them, at one point head champions in 5-6 divisions at a time. Alway shad a gym winning percentage of 80% or higher. Won a whole bunch of tournaments.
I set a couple of game records with a fighter named Terry Twinkletoes who went like 28-0-1 for longest undefeated streak and had a guy named Lt. Tom Kazanski who won world tiles from featherweight to light heavyweight and lost a bid for the cruiserweight title. He set the record for most division WT's.
On top of that, I became head of the commission for at least 2 years.
I loved the community, felt like I knew people personally and even met a few in person. We had a get together at my home where Aaron, Idaho Tom, The Corporation and The Coroner all stayed at my place with my 2 brothers. We had a bunch of guitars and jammed together. It wa was a blast.
Nick (Knuckles) Marsolo and I met 2-3 times in Michigan at hockey games. I met a guy named Crewed in downtown Toronto and had a beer with him.
Met BAddog at a hockey game in Belleville, Ontario.
I tred as commission rot treat people with respect and tried hard to build the community. Aaron gave me quite a bit of rein to do as I pleased.
From 2001 to about 2005 maybe early 2006 I was addicted and into this game as it was probably possible.
But, honestly, I got burned out.
I was spending so much time on the game, because I was so obsessed with always winning, that I began to realize it was not a healthy obsession.
I wasn't spending as much time with my wife and daughter as I should and I wasn't getting the sleep I needed and even felt like my work my suffer because of all the time I was putting into it. I loved the competition but the PC work was taking up as much of my time as trying to play the game.
As well, and this was secondary to the other things I've stated, Aaron was constantly fiddling and changing the game and while I understood why he was doing it, he was trying to create a more attractive product, I have to admit I didn't like a lot of the changes and when he started suggesting some that were going to change game play itself my interest started to wane a bit, too. I literally quit cold turkey and walked away.
I popped back in once in a while to check up on things but never had another fight. As time went by, my check-ins became less frequent. Each time I came back I recognized the game less and less.
It's been years since I last checked in, I don't even know how many, and I found this thread interesting. From the day I joined I was always curious about the history and when I met Aaron in person a couple of times he gave me quite a bit of his version of events.
I think there are 2 versions of the truth and I can't pretend to know which is right.
I do know I registered at Webl to check it out even created a fighter who had 2-3 fights but I was so used to and familiar with TBG that I just preferred it. Nothing against well or any of the people who were there, I was just so invested in TBG and from 2001-04 it was a very vibrant game with great managers, that I just couldn't get into webl.
I just found this thread interesting because some of the EKO stuff I'd only ever heard from Aaron and not from many of the early players, many of whom were gone when I arrived.
I laughed when I read Frank White's bash at Duck. Still the same old shit disturber, lol.
I liked FW because he

Posted 2018/12/06 4:19 AM by Slick Willy

I guess there is a limit on how long you can post.
I liked FW because he was os invested in TBG and every game needs a bad guy and he playsd the role well.
He ran so many fighters he could neve really plan well for fights so someone like me who scouted so much usually beat him often. Pretty sure my win% vs. him was 80-90% but I do give him credit for having as many champions as he did considering how many fighters he ran.
I was pretty disappointed around 2009 to sign in and see all my fighters were gone from my gym.
I don't think I was ever coming back to fight again but having lost all my fighters that pretty much sealed that decision.
I don't even know how to find them anymore.
I'm also not sure I'd know how to write a fight plan anymore.
I remember having 100 to 200 line FPs for major fights.
Not that they needed to be that long but I tried to cover so many contingencies.
If you really had a guy scouted well though ou could win with a 10 line FP and I won some big fights with short ones.
I really did enjoy this game so much and for 4-5 years it really filled a void that I had for a competitive, recreational hobby.
In 2006, I discovered fantasy sports and that's my hobby now. Yep, I have an 80% or higher winning percentage, I told you I play to win.
I used to spend too much time on that as well but the one thing about fantasy is that after a few years you know the players so well that you only really need to do minimal research to maintain your knowledge base.
My daily time investment in fantasy is about 10 minutes instead of, and I hate to admit this, I sometimes spent 7-8 hours a day on TBG when I was at my peak. It was crazy in hindsight.
Still, it was a lot of fun for quite a while.
I"m glad to see some of you are still playing whether it's TBG/BDB or webl
Good luck to all of you and keep enjoying the game!
I'll always have a soft spot for TBG.

Posted 2018/12/07 1:36 PM by Zippy Gym

Slick Willy!!!!!! I remember you old timer.

manage a cit fighter?

I must have been gone away long er than you and I can say about 1 week and all this stuff just starts coming back. Also the above archived history is insanely too long for me to read and i don't know any other game like this one.I remember my dog ate my phone cord and i couldn't check my fight reports for damn near 48 hrs (could not get a cord until i had time to drive 45 mins to wal-mart..The dog took permanent residence outside after that.I put this game above all else in my couple of years and I had some seriously good fighters and I assume they were either sold or dumped.Sucks! Life does go on Im going to comeback stronger than ever.

Stick around.

Posted 2018/12/09 10:04 PM by The Monster from Within

It's real cool to see a legend come back and say hello


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